Maybe we can start at the very beginning… You were born in Honolulu, if I’m not mistaken… So, at which age did you end up in Florida and when and how did you meet Chuck and Rick then?
“Yeah, my family moved to Florida when I was as only a toddler. I grew up primarily in South Florida – Fort Lauderdale and Miami Beach area – until my parents divorced. I lived with my father for about a year – after they divorced – in Key Largo until my mother won a custody battle over me and my brother, forcing us to move in with her and her new husband. She had relocated to Central Florida, moved to a suburban neighborhood called Forest City, just north outside of Orlando, about a few miles away of Altamonte Springs. I was 14. That was in late 1981. I remember I didn’t start back in school until the following year – so in a way I was held back a year. The system decided to put me back the following year 1982 as a freshman. So I repeated the ninth grade and hated it. I was as pretty much an invert that first year. I barely met anyone who had any idea what I was into. Growing up in South Florida I was a city kid, who grew up around urban kids in street gangs and city crime. I saw my first real dead body at age 11, the remains of a hooker junkie stuffed into a garbage bag behind our school. Street violence was a way of life in Miami and I grew up around that kind of violence and activity. I’m not proud of it – just happy to have survived it and escape it. But because of it I was exposed to a different type of music. I was more into Punk Rock music and skateboarding than anything, because much of the streets and sidewalks were set up like a grid, straight and in box shaped. You knew your block this way, made it easy to mark territory and boundaries. Six streets up, five streets west. Don’t cross the highway, unless you use the tunnel underpass. Don’t go through the tunnel after 7 pm. Stay out of the project district, don’t go past the convenience store on the far side. When those street lights are gone on, head home. This was the general street rules. But now I was forced to live in a country suburb with dirt roads and rednecks who listened to MOLLY HATCHET and LYNYRD SKYNYRD. Suffice it to say I hated it. It wasn’t until the following year in 1983 – I met Frederick in art class. He was a special needs kid – so during the normal school days you didn’t see these students in the hallways. As they had them all in a classroom together. It was 1980s, they didn’t know much about dyslexia and other learning disabilities, plus it was the country suburbs. Most adults were mentally still stuck in the 1960s, so they put all these students together in one classroom. It didn’t matter if they had Down syndrome, dyslexia, depression or physical disabilities. It was like the school was embarrassed by these kids and wanted to lock them away from everyone else. But some of them where allowed to come out and be a part of recreational activities or extracurricular classes such as wood shop, physical education, music class or art classes. I met Freddy in art class. It was during the return to school after summer break. It was 1983. I wouldn’t meet Chuck until January of 1984.”Did you get along with Rick right away or did you have to get used to each other first? How come you met in art class and not in music class?
“No, I think it probably was an awkward meeting. He was rather abrasive. I know people always will read or hear the story that we met in our class, when he asked me if I could draw Eddie of IRON MAIDEN. And yes, that part is true, but people probably imagine that it was a nice congenial friendly request, but to be honest with you, it was more of a challenge. It was as if he was challenging me to do it. It wasn’t something where we connected right away, but rather he was kinda with an attitude and was like “Hey, do you think you can draw this?” As if he was challenging me to a contest or something – and if I could achieve his request, then maybe I would be good enough for him to engage with me. Music class was always weird. For one it was always full of all the jocks and cheerleaders – if the shop class ran out of room, the remaining jocks filtered into music class… it’s always been a racket, especially in the ’80s when high school favoritism was played out amongst the students and staff… especially in the jock department, where it always was favoritism. So, music class was full before anyone else had a chance to fill it up. Secondly, the shit that they taught you in class was garbage, as it was school marching band bullocks. So, us rejects ended up in either agriculture class or art class. Agriculture class was always full of the potheads back then and they had their own little clique as well. If you weren’t part of that particular group of individuals and hippies, there was no way you were gonna get in that class. So, the rest of us ended up going to art class. If you were anybody weird – Punk, Goth chick, Metalhead, you ended up in art class.”When did you find out that you both enjoyed similar music and had you already been playing in any bands at the time? When and how did you hook up with Chuck then?
“I did a short lived Punk band called INVADERS FROM HELL. It was just a garage band, where we messed around, trying to play MISFITS covers. I had a friend, Kevin, who was a tape trader and he was attending school in our same high school at the time. He was a transplant kid, originally from New York. He was the one who got me into tape trading. He started making copies of tapes for me with Hardcore Punk music on one side – stuff like GBH, THE EXPLOITED, FEAR, AGNOSTIC FRONT and others. And on the B-side he would put more underground Metal stuff, like RAVEN, RIOT, JAG PANZER, MANOWAR, MERCYFUL FATE and such. I got exposed to Metal from Kevin. So, when I met Freddy I already was aware of the more underground stuff. He was getting into more Metal underground stuff as well through his friends in the band THATCHER. I think the reason was, the singer was going to collage at UCF and he did a late night collage radio station, so he had access to a bunch of underground music. So, we discovered we knew many of the same or similar music through the tape trading circles.”
What kind of music did THATCHER play?
“I think they were just a typical Heavy Metal act. Mostly a cover band. But they were good at it. Playing mostly IRON MAIDEN covers and I believe ACCEPT covers. But I guess even they were short lived. The band really didn’t last very long. Regardless of how good they were. I wasn’t that close either with any of them to be honest, so I am not the authority on them in any way. I’m just recalling from memory about them, but it’s nothing much past my initial experience.”
When and how did you end up playing drums?“I was drumming for a while before we played together. I was self taught, never took lessons. I learned by watching other drummers. My father was in entertainment. He did Hawaiian Luaus (Polynesian shows) with Hula Dancers and Fire Knife. He was one of the best Fire Knife performers back in the day in South Florida. So, I was around entertainment all my life. Especially musicians. Much of my father’s music, when he did the Fire Knife, was drum driven, so I was attracted to the drums of my native people and Polynesian music long before I could walk. So, it’s always been a part of me and my culture.”
When and how did you both hook up with Chuck then?
“It was the end of 1983, going into New Years of 1984. Frederick and I had gotten together a few times at my house, starting around fall of 1983, to run through songs like ‘Poison’ from VENOM, and a few other tracks he could figure out on guitar. Remember this was 1983. You couldn’t just pull up tabs on the internet or some guy’s video showing how to play the riffs. This was old school, learn it by ear, try to figure it out. Play it to the best of your abilities. This is what we did… but also we started working on originals like ‘Demon’s Flight’ and ‘Mantas’. However, it was becoming hard to continue, working at my house, because my step father was a dickhead. He would purposely turn off the power to my room and forced us out of the house. Rehearsal at Fred’s was impossible, as he lived in a small home with his parents and grandma. They were also super religious and they would talk shit about me when they thought I was out of earshot, but I have pretty good hearing and would catch their conversations. It was even more evident when they started to refuse me to even enter the house. I would show up and was told to wait outside. And I would wait sometimes up to 20 to 30 minutes before Fred would even come out, as they neglected to even inform him that I was outside waiting. So, we needed a place to rehearse and it was evident it wasn’t going to happen at either of our homes. On New Year’s Eve Frederick went to a party in the adjacent town, which was Altamonte Springs. I think I remember him asking me to go, but I decided not to, because of my situation with a ride and how far I had to go back to my own house. And I didn’t really feel like riding my skateboard for seven miles back home. Anyways, he decided to go to the party and I guess, while he was there, he met Chuck. I know it was the weekend and I believe that he had called me the next day, telling me he met a guy that has a similar taste in music as we did, but the big thing that he kept saying was – “This guy has got garage… we got a place to practice, because this guy has got a garage.” I recall asking him questions, like where did he go to school and stuff like that. He told me he went to Lyman high school, which was the high school in Altamonte Springs and he lived really close to the school. I was familiar with where the school was, because the school was on a street where there was a gas station that back in the day, if you were under age and you wanted to buy alcohol, that was the particular gas station that people went to. Anyways, long story short, he basically made it, so we would meet the following weekend and see how everything went. And I remember that we collectively decided to meet at Chuck’s house and then together we would all go up the street to a drive-in theater which just so happened to be playing the movie “Evil Dead”. Actually, it was a double feature with the first movie being a movie called “Nightmare”, which was sort of a slasher film, and then of course, the infamous movie “Evil Dead”.”
Please tell us a bit more about that room that Chuck had and that you ended up rehearsing in… Were was it located and how big was it approximately?
“It was a garage… not sure if they are standard size everywhere, but I don’t know the exact dimensions. It was big enough for my drum kit and the guitar amps – and a washer and dryer and shelving units full of stuff. It was Chuck’s parents house, so it was located attached to the house. Pretty sure if you Google the address a photo of it would pop up.”Did you ever get into trouble because of the noise you were making?
“I don’t think anyone ever complained about the noise. I think maybe once on a Sunday a church worshipper lady might have had some gripe with the noise, but I don’t recall ever hearing anything about the cops showing up for noise complaints.”
When you three finally started to rehearse together, how did you approach the bass player position? I mean, were you really looking for a bass player or did you decide right from the start that you wouldn’t need one anyway?
“The bass player story… now that’s a funny one. Yeah, we never had a bassist, mainly because we couldn’t find anyone else into the same kind of music. It was 1984. No one wanted to play underground music back then. It was all Hair Metal and pretty boy Glam stuff. We had Dave Tett come out and be a “Fake Shemp”, a term for a fake stand in – for photos. Chuck wanted the band to look legit, so he had some guy at school he knew to come “try out”. The guy brought a bass (no amp) and sat through a single rehearsal, and he was whining and complaining the entire time. Said our music sucked and he wanted to play music to “get girls”. So yeah, after that we decided to just go without a bassist, as it seemed this was the general mindset of most musicians in our area.”
I know that Metal Archives isn’t always the best source of information, but Dave Tett is listed there as the bass player on the very first official MANTAS rehearsal from 1984. And the 2012 Relapse Records compilation “Death By Metal” also mentions him as the bass player on the “Emotional” demo… which is actually an early rehearsal, featuring ‘Legion Of Doom’, ‘Evil Dead’ and ‘Mantas’…
“He was present at that one rehearsal, but I don’t remember him actually playing. I do think he might have tried to play along, but could not keep up. Those archives are wrong, because dumb twats like Eric Grief and Freddy retell history to fit their agendas. Eric fabricated so many falsehood post mortem it’s insane. He was the guy who went in and reworked the Wikipedia and even altered the MASSACRE Wikipedia page to reflect his revision version of the past. I’m glad Eric’s fucking dead. He was a fucking thorn in my side for decades. I didn’t get my actual rights until I sued him and Relapse Records for that MANTAS release. I won the law suit. They settled out of court, because they knew what they did was a violation of my rights. I was going to sue Freddy too, but my lawyer said it would be a useless lawsuit, because Freddy is a loser, with no real money to make the law suit worth the court expenses. So, about that “Emotional” rehearsal – the reason it was called that was because on the version that Chuck sent out to Borivoj and Monte Conner – it actually had the recording of Dave Tett’s meltdown of him crying about how our music sucked and how he wanted to play music to get girls and not be hated. I’m sure an uncut unedited version is out there somewhere. But that was the “joke” of why it was called “Emotional”, because the guy basically had an emotional meltdown. I think Chucky purposely put Dave’s meltdown on the B-side of those tapes. As I said Eric and Fred sat down and fabricated a narrative to fit an agenda to make the MANTAS release have a coherent backstory, so they purposely filled in blanks with whatever bullshit they could create. I have no reason to make up stories, because I’m not trying to sell anything that telling my version of the truth would promote. I have no reason to perpetuate propaganda, as it would not benefit me personally or financially to push my accounts of the past and tell my truth. It’s simply my own personal recounting of the past. People can either take it or leave it.”Apart from playing drums you were also doing the vocals in the early days of MANTAS. I suppose none of you guys had been singing before, so did you all give it a try first until it was decided that you should be the band’s vocalist as well? What inspired your pretty unusual extreme vocal style, which was totally unusual for the time?
“No, no one at first wanted to do vocals. I think at one time Mark Conrad (Guillotine fanzine) was supposed to do it, but it was only first discussed that first week, when we talked on the phone. Truth is, I knew from the beginning I wanted to do the vocals. I had heard the band EXCITER and was impressed how Dan Beehler was the drummer and vocalist and thought that was super unique. I was already screaming the chorus parts to ‘Demon’s Flight’ out loud from behind the kit. So I just naturally started singing the whole songs once we started making music. Chuck was not singing at all at first. Not until we created ‘Power Of Darkness’. By then we had already written ‘Legion Of Doom’, ‘Evil Dead’, ‘Mantas’, ‘Rise Of Satan’, ‘Demon’s Flight’ and ‘Death By Metal’. ‘Power Of Darkness’ was the last track written as MANTAS. The track to follow would be ‘Corpse Grinder’. It was Freddy’s attempt to make a new style of playing with complete double picking riffs throughout the entire song, with no chord ring out parts or notes progression. It was the first sign of the division in different styles and what eventually led to him being kicked out the first time. Chuck was progressing rapidly in his skills on guitar, you can kind of see it in his songwriting. From ‘Power Of Darkness’ then to ‘Zombie’ and further into ‘Beyond The Unholy Grave’ and ‘Baptized In Blood’. The skill level in the playing continued to progress. However, Fred’s style remained very similar and continued to remain stagnant. When he was unable to keep up with Chuck’s skill level in technique he instead would suggest playing open chord progression beneath Chuck’s more intricate notes. This I felt made a unique dynamic that was very interesting, but Chuck grew frustrated with Fred’s lazy style and lack of skills, which made him get rid of Freddy at first. Fred only came back when it was apparent that a few other guys, that we tried out, didn’t work out. Chuck had two other guitarists come out and audition. They just didn’t make the cut, so I do think Chuck reluctantly agreed to bring Fred back. Not out of anything other then desperately hoping he would improve and the fact that the try out with others went down badly. Anyhow, for me being the vocalist, I had always intended to go in that direction, so it was very easy to transition over to doing it, because in my mind I already had the vocal patterns of a majority of those early songs and how I wanted them to be done. It’s ironic how the narrative has changed over the years and how people think that it’s all Chuck’s ideas in songs like ‘Evil Dead’, ‘Legion Of Doom’, ‘Death By Metal’ and so forth, but the fact is, all of that stuff, every single one of those MANTAS songs and the early DEATH stuff, are all my vocal patterns, all my lyrics. The only lyrics Chuck wrote in the MANTAS stuff was ‘Power Of Darkness’. On the “Reign Of Terror” demo the only song that he wrote was ‘Reign Of Terror’. Everything else was my vocals and lyrics. He didn’t actually start writing his own songs until ‘Baptized In Blood’ and ‘Beyond The Unholy Grave’. Those were really the songs that he came in with and did everything, lyrics and vocals. And I personally think that he wouldn’t have even begun doing vocals if it wasn’t for his family that pushed him into it, because I recall them asking questions like, “Well… It’s your garage… It’s your band. Why aren’t you the singer?” I think that’s what initiated him wanting to stand up and be the singer. It was pressure from his family, not necessarily something he intended to do from the beginning. But honestly, when it came to my style, I was first influenced by what Cronos was doing from VENOM, of course, but then kind of switched it, because there were other bands that I was listening to like SODOM and DESTRUCTION out of Germany, which was really influential to me as far as the Speed Metal, early Thrash coming out of Germany stuff. And also there was KREATOR, who were called TORMENTOR at the time, because we heard the demo. So, those vocals really influenced me in that early days, because we had all those demos. Again, it’s ironic how the narrative in history has changed, because no one ever asked me what my influence was for the style of vocals that I did in MANTAS.They only assume and pick up once I went to join MASSACRE, where I changed my vocal style to be more of the growling style. No one ever said “Hey, what were you doing before MASSACRE?” The vocals in MANTAS and DEATH are different from when I went to MASSACRE. That has never been brought up in any interviews or facts. So, with that it is assumed it was Chuck. The assumption is, I only started singing in MASSACRE, and I only started singing in the deep growls style. The fact is, I had been singing in MANTAS / DEATH prior to me joining MASSACRE and I had been doing the more screechy type vocals back then. And so a lot of times people can’t tell the difference between myself and Chuck, although I think there’s a big difference you can hear. To me the difference is in the tone and presentation in our voices, and pronunciation of different things, so to me it’s the novice that doesn’t really pick up these differences.”
Do you recall anything about the two guitar players that were trying out?“I do not remember their names. They were just two guys that Chuck knew from school. I couldn’t tell you who they were. They never went off to do anything else, but you have to remember this was the ’80s. If you didn’t have sports skills, if you didn’t have a football or a baseball or basketball in your hand, every other guy then was playing guitar. So, every third guy in a room, if they weren’t playing sports, was trying to play music. That’s just how it was back then. It didn’t mean that everyone was skilled, actually a matter of fact, the majority of these type of guys were playing stuff like MÖTLEY CRÜE or CINDERELLA or some other Hair Metal bollocks… They didn’t wanna play anything that was more extreme then. They were only doing it to get chicks or guys, but it was the ’80s, so they kept that kind of secret back then.”
Did you write all the lyrics back then?
“On the MANTAS demo, I wrote the lyrics and created the vocal patterns on all the tracks. Chuck only did ‘Power Of Darkness’. On the first DEATH demo, not the re-recorded “Death By Metal” demo, but the actual first DEATH demo, which was in fact “Reign Of Terror”, I did all the vocals, wrote all the lyrics and created the vocal patterns. The only song Chuck created was the chorus for ‘Reign Of Terror’. He did the full song vocally live, but at first, I was singing on that entire demo. It’s all my lyrics and vocal patterns on that demo. Again, the “narrative” changed to conceal these facts and to attempt to make me just a side note in history. This was initiated by DEATH’s manager and others after Chuck’s passing to create a post-mortem altered history to further push sales. It’s an ingenious, but devious way to ensure the continued interest in order to generate revenue. What I am saying isn’t meant to diminish Chuck’s importance in what he did musically. People need to not take it out of context, which happens to me constantly, but understand that much of the “history” that was created after his passing was done to create a continued resource for income and investment, not to actually do anything else as tribute. It’s all a cleverly disguised ruse in the name of “tribute”, which ignorant people fall for every time. But when I come out talking that “truth”, then the sensitive type of people get super offended and want to make it out to be something more. Again, I am not speaking ill about Chuck in any bad way. I’m only describing the completely exploitive manner in which certain companies and those entrusted with his legacy have used it as a financial profit.”
Who came up with MANTAS as your bandname and which other names did you discuss as well before you all settled on it? As far as I know, the stagename of VENOM’s Jeff Dunn was your inspiration…
“Yes, the name was derived from VENOM‘s guitar player, because it just felt natural with two guitar players in the band to lean that way I guess. Fred jumped at calling us MANTAS, as he didn’t like my suggestions, which weren’t really serious enough. I think I may have mentioned DEVIL’S PLAYTHINGS, which he thought sounded gay (note: being that it was mid 1980s, not only was it during the Satanic Panic era, it was also the homophobia era – everyone said “gay”, not only to describe something being gay, but if they thought it was weak or bad). But MANTAS was just a “placeholder name” to be honest. As I said, no one was really taking my name suggestions too seriously and Chuck didn’t really have anything. I think he was just happy at that moment to be playing with a few guys and creating music. Mark Conrad and John Gross of Guillotine fanzine were adamant about us having a name and something to release. In hindsight, now that I think about it, their main motive wasn’t for the band, but for themselves. It was so they could have something to use to tape trade. They were also tape traders and they were just coming out with their underground fanzine Guillotine, so they really wanted something to give to people, who are not only buying the fanzine from them, but also that they could use something new to tape trade. So, in a sense it was Mark and John, who really pushed us to have a release out and why we started to just go ahead and record everything on a Panasonic boombox in Chuck’s garage. However, that’s also ironic, because eventually that backfired on John, as Chuck decided at one point he no longer wanted John or Mark around. It was no explanation given, he just one day said, “I don’t want those guys here!” and that was that by that time. We were calling ourselves DEATH and even by that time his demeanor changed. He went from being the shy, humble kid to being sort of this passive aggressive dickhead, and I don’t mean to say that in any sort of bad way. That’s not me, trying to talk bad about the guy, people need to understand we were teenagers. People don’t understand the situation that was happening. Chuck’s older brother Frank had passed away. Chuck’s mother coddled him and gave him anything he wanted. He literally was being created into being formed into this spoiled teenager and that really had a lot to do with his personality. I mean we’re all adults here. This is 40 something years later, if we can’t look at it openly and constructively, we might as well just continue with the imitation narrative that’s been spun around the past and just go with that. But honestly, I’m not trying to ruin his memory and I’m not trying to destroy his reputation, that is not what this purpose is. It’s just I’m explaining, during that time some 40 something years ago, of how his attitude completely changed overnight. It wasn’t all bad, because of his sudden drive to be better and do better, we got better. Honestly, just in that short year time, we went from being a garage jam band, to a more focused band creating originals. And it was Chuck’s drive that made that happen, because if we had relied on Freddy, we would’ve never had as much material or songs done and everything would’ve sounded generic and the same. Chuck was really a driving force when it came to the music. He really was a genius, because I watched this kid go from the shy little kid with braces, to a strong driven young man with phenomenal guitar skills, in less than a year. No one else can really say they got to see that other than Freddy. No one else on this planet was there during that time, including Eric. It was just the three of us. So, I’m not trying to diminish anything of Chuck’s reputation or anything. I’m trying to tell you I watched him blossom in the very beginning. Unfortunately he was also a victim of circumstance, a victim of what his family was going through at the time. And not to make it sound bad, because that’s not what it is, but the truth was, he came with the attitude that it was “his house, his garage his band”. That was how it was gonna be, that’s why I think he put his foot down and said, this is the way it is. It’s my way or the highway.”Were you aware of the actual background / meaning of the name “Mantas”? I mean, Jeff Dunn might as well just have made up the word himself or chosen it for some totally stupid reason…
“I think I knew it was a large stingray-like animal… I do think Rozz thought it was the name of a demon. But I was sure it was a stingray… I think another misinterpreted fact and fabrication is that Chuck drew the MANTAS logo. Again, like with the DEATH logo tale, this is not true. It was not Chuck, but I drew that MANTAS logo, just like I drew the DEATH logo. Here’s the knowledge that people seem to “overlook” when it comes to the MANTAS logo. Many people tend to think the logo has a “devil’s tail” to represent the devil. But it was in fact only added after we saw the POSSESSED logo. I know that fact is going to make people very upset, but I don’t deny the fact that POSSESSED was around before us. We were tape traders, and we bought and mail-ordered a lot of early underground fanzines. Also in the ’80s, people stuffed your envelope with all kinds of homemade flyers and demo ads copies on xerox machines. I know we eventually saw the POSSESSED logo… probably the flame logo with the devil’s tails coming off the “D”. That was how I added the tail to the MANTAS logo, which actually I was trying at first to make it look like a “manta ray sting ray. Now you can’t unsee it, once you look at the logo.”Your real names are Barney Kamalani Lee, Frederick Donald DeLillo and Charles Michael Schuldiner… At which point did you guys decide that you should be Kam Lee, Rick Rozz and Chuck Schuldiner, when it comes to your musical activities?
“I have been Kam since I was young. It’s my nickname since childhood. It’s part of my middle name. My Hawaiian name – Kamalani. My father would call me Kamalani or Kam for short. So it’s the name I go by. Only my grandmother would call me by my first name Barney. And she would actually call me Barney “K”, the K stands for Kam or Kamalani, as to identify me differently from my father, whose first name is also Barney. As far as Chuck, he was always Chuck or Chucky. I didn’t even know his name was Charles until years after I was out of the band. It never occurred to me he has another “real name”. Besides when we did the band together he was “Evil Chuck”, I think people seem to forget that. He quickly went from Evil Chuck to just Chuck after I was done with the band. Guess it was his cathartic way of shedding off old ties to MANTAS perhaps. As far as Freddy, he wanted a stage name that sounded like Mick Mars. He was a huge MÖTLEY CRÜE fan at the time and he just picked a name that sounded similar to the guitarist of MÖTLEY CRÜE. Look, people may think I’m lying or making that up to make him look bad, but it’s fact. Even other people in the scene like Phil from MALEVOLENT CREATION remember seeing Freddy with MÖTLEY CRÜE painted on his guitar case. So, there’s others that can attest to this fact. Again, I’m not purposely saying anything that isn’t true and in order to answer the question in depth it’s imperative that such facts be presented for the answer to have proper context.”
What were the very first songs you three jammed on together? I suppose you started playing cover songs before you wrote any own material, didn’t you?
“Well, as I said before, Frederick and I had learned some VENOM songs and we had the two originals, ‘Demon’s Flight’ and ‘Mantas’… so we would actually do both simultaneously. We played through VENOM covers and do some original music. What I hated was, Freddy was still stuck in his MÖTLEY CRÜE phase, so he made us learn the song ‘Live Wire’, which we actually performed live at our very first show, at a ShowBiz Pizza (a pizzeria like a Chuck E. Cheese). That was a Friday night teen club from 7:00 pm until 9:00 pm for under age teens to hang out for two hours. It was something that they tried in the ’80s to do. Personally I think it was created by pedos just to gather underaged girls, to try and recruit and groom. But who really knows what the real reason for them was. They didn’t last very long. It was also during the Satanic Panic scare in the ’80s… and after the pre-school incident, where a bunch of teachers got blamed for being Satanist – that sexually abused children – as well as the owner of a nation wide mall chain clothing store called Merry-go-round was found guilty of sexual misconduct with minors – they closed down all the teen clubs. But let me retrace my point – we did start right away with original material along with a few covers. We spent hours, sometimes five to six hours in that garage daily, just going over music. We were really dedicated to keep pushing. I can attest though it was Chuck, who was the driving force behind those long days. Freddy was always lazy and he made excuses to leave or take off after an hour or so on some days. Which left me and Chuck to work on music without him. That’s why later, as time went on, after we changed over into DEATH, Chuck had just started working together with me on original songs without Fred. You can tell his songs like ‘Arch Angel’, ‘Beyond The Unholy Grave’, ‘Baptized In Blood’, ‘Rigor Mortis’ and ‘Seizure’. Those tracks have a very different sound then the Freddy written tracks.”You mentioned, that you all went to see the movie “Evil Dead”, when you met with Chuck for the first time… So, was ‘Evil Dead’ one of the very first songs you wrote with MANTAS afterwards?
“Yes, we went together to see “Evil Dead” and yes, the song ‘Evil Dead’ was one of the very first songs we collectively wrote together. Anything before that, which was three songs, was material that Freddy wrote: ‘Demon’s Flight’, ‘Mantas’ and parts of ‘Rise Of Satan’. ‘Legion Of Doom’ was Chuck’s, with maybe the middle being Freddy’s, but ‘Evil Dead’ was definitely the first song we created together from ground zero.”
Were you already aware at that point that you had created something special with that particular song?
“We had no idea that song was going to be such a staple track, but I did feel it had more passion then most of the stuff we were writing.”
Since I got introduced to MANTAS through tapetrading back in those days, I don’t really know the exact chronological order of your releases… was the first edition of the “Death By Metal” demo your very first official release or did you sent out any rehearsal recordings before that already? How much time had passed until you decided to release a second edition of “Death By Metal” and was the slightly better recording quality part of the reason for it?
“Essentially the demos that are infamously known around the world aren’t really demos, they are rehearsals. We just played the songs over and over, till we got the best versions and then put those best live rehearsal versions together on a tape, to make the first official “Death By Metal” demo. This also explains why there’s a second version of the demo, because the first version we felt was kind of… just not very good or not very tight playing. So, when we recorded all the songs again in the same fashion, live in the studio, or should I say, live in the garage, we had already been playing through the songs more, so we thought we were a little bit better. Of course I’m explaining it out of chronological order, because the second demo would’ve actually been DEATH’s first demo of the same name. It is confusing, especially to anybody 40 something years later, because it seems that MANTAS was an established band. And that’s all because of the narrative that was created and built after Chuck’s death by Eric Grief and company. But in all honesty, it was just the same band with a pseudo placeholder name until we decided to call the band DEATH. However, the way it’s been told, the way that it’s historically fabricated is, it was a completely separate band, when in fact it never was. It was just the same three guys, who were calling ourselves something, just so we could call ourselves something until we settled on the name DEATH. That’s why in the first issue of the fanzine Guillotine we have the MANTAS article, but in issue two we have the DEATH article. It’s not like there was a lot of time that transpired between the name changes. We were calling ourselves MANTAS only a few months before changing it.”How many rehearsals did you approximately record until you finally decided to use some of those recordings for an official release? Are the songs on the “Death By Metal” demo release actually from various rehearsal sessions or just one in particular? And do you still recall when you exactly recorded the songs that finally ended up on the tape?
“Honestly, I’m not sure exactly how many rehearsals were recorded and I can tell you that, what we used to do, was put in a 60 minutes tape, started at the beginning and just play through the songs. When we got to a version we felt we were happy with, that’s the version we took off the tape. So in essence we would play versions of songs over and over again, till we felt we got a version all the way through. Usually it was once we played a really strong version of the song for the first time, ha ha ha. We just stopped, go back, grab the tape, rewind it, listen to the song and go “Yup, that’s the one.” Usually what we did then was, we would run into Chuck’s bedroom, where he had a dual cassette stereo, and then we would dub the version that we just recorded onto another tape and use that sort of as a master tape. But I couldn’t tell you how many times we did that. But I can tell you it was rather quickly. I do believe the first version of the demo was recorded over one weekend and we just spent hours in the garage playing the songs. But to be fair, it’s not like the songs are that difficult. A lot of them were just typically jam sessions that we played through and then we felt we’re good enough. It’s not like we sat down and structurally worked out the songs bit by bit. Freddy would play a riff and then Chuck would play a riff and I would just play the drums right along until we got something that sounded consistently like a song. I can also tell you that a lot of the lyrics that I was singing, was just off the fly. I literally just made up stuff off the top of my head with the majority of those songs. I didn’t really have anything. I would have a lyrical idea and structure for how the lyrics would go into a song. I usually would build a basic foundation to build upon and have that in mind. And I usually sang along to a guitar riff or something of a melody that was sort of catchy, even though I wasn’t actually singing in notes. I tried to basically come up with a pattern that was catchy. A perfect example is ‘Evil Dead’. That song is the foundation and basic roots to the sound. It stayed the way that it is from the original way that I structured the chorus. Although lyrics were changed, it’s my basic structuring and foundation of the lyrics that Chuck later wrote. He simply just followed what I first created. The chorus is relatively the same as the one that I had created. He just rewrote lyrics around the verse structures I had written.”There have been two editions of the “Death By Metal” demo, and I’m talking about the MANTAS edition here… One that features a band photo and the name MANTAS just in capital letters on top of it and another one with artwork and the actual MANTAS logo. Which one was released first, why did you create two covers for it and what made you mention ‘Power Of Darkness’ explicitly as a bonus track instead of just another regular demo song?
“Well, I have mentioned this before many times, but I’ll mention it here again. I do realize there is a bit of confusion with the first MANTAS “Death By Metal” tape release. This is attributed to four different people sending out the first tapes all at the same time. The first tape, that was being sent out, was from Mark and John of Guillotine. The cover used for that was the photo cover of the three of us, with my handwritten letters. The year 1984 is handwritten in the lower corner. If you compare my handwriting to Chuck’s handwritten thanks list on the inside, you can plainly see the difference in our handwriting. And the reason why that was created was simply so the guys in Guillotine fanzine had something to trade. Like I said, Mark and John were there in the beginning, and they really pushed us to get something recorded, because for them it was an opportunity to have something unique to start trading everywhere, so they could themselves get tapes traded in return. But it was also used to help fund their fanzine. As I had mentioned before, there was a time where they were very involved and John acted like a manager. However, I don’t know exactly what happened between Chuck and them. All I know is at one point Chuck said he no longer wanted them around. I can only assume what had happened only because of putting some of the facts together. And that may have simply been because John started selling the demo and taking the money for himself. And like I said, I don’t know if this is exactly what had happened, but I kind of assume this is what had happened. And Chuck may have felt that it was unfair that he was selling the demo and taking the money to fund his fanzine. Again, I must repeat that this is speculation. I don’t know for a fact that this was an actual thing that happened. I’m only speculating because of how things happened and trying to put pieces together of how and what lead to them being banned from further rehearsals. This is a scenario that seems to make a little bit of sense, which brings me to the second version of the demo. The original version did not include ‘Power Of Darkness’. We separately recorded a new session of those songs for that version and we added ‘Power Of Darkness’, because at the time we did the first demo, Chuck hadn’t written that song yet and that was the first song that Chuck had written in its entirety without Freddy involved. So, a second pressing was made with this track added later and the cover was rerun with this track added, as it has an * in front of it, indicating it’s a new track. The drawn cover by me, with my original artwork, my original logo design and my hand written lettering was the second version of the demo, with newly recorded versions of the songs. Plus the year 1984 is clearly written beneath Mayhem Music. That would basically honestly be the official demo. I know you didn’t mention this, but there is a third version of the “Death By Metal” demo, with all newer recordings, yet again of these songs. That is the version that had Chuck’s cover, with the name changed now to DEATH. His cover is simply a sharpie marker rendering of an upside down cross and two skulls. There is no logo. Only the hand written name on the spine of the cassette. Eagle eyed viewers will also note the “T” is an upright cross, not an inverted upside down cross, like the original logo that I designed. The inside track listing was hand written by him, with a xeroxed copy of my original logo. The songs were recorded again for this version.”Is the live show, that was included in the limited 2 CD edition of the “Death By Metal” compilation from Relapse Records, the only show that you played as MANTAS? I’m talking about the show at Knights Of Columbus Hall in Orlando, Florida on September 01, 1984 here… Please tell us a bit about that show.
“No, that was the second show as MANTAS. But probably the first show to ever be taped. The first show that we actually played was at a ShowBiz Pizza. It’s the infamous ShowBiz Pizza show, the very first time MANTAS played a show was at this place. The show was never recorded. Mark and John didn’t show up for that. Those two idiots were the ones that recorded all those early shows. I don’t exactly remember the date, but it was in 1984… not in 1983 like the fake narratives want people to believe. It had to be summer, because kids were out of school for summer break. We played four songs and one cover. As much as I’d love to tell you it was a cool cover from VENOM or somebody like that, unfortunately the sad truth is, because Freddy wanted it, we covered the MÖTLEY CRÜE song ‘Live Wire’. It was the ’80s, you have to remember a ShowBiz Pizza is sort of like a Chuck E. Cheese or a Five Nights At Freddy kind of place – a place where they did animatronic characters that came out and did a stage set for kids that came in and played video games and ate pizza. But since it was the ’80s, every Friday night, for two hours, from 7 PM to 9 PM, they turned a lot of these places into what they called a teen club. The idea was to give teenagers a place to go on a Friday night, as opposed to hanging out at the mall, where they can still be in a safe space. However, I think that’s ironic, because I don’t think these places are exactly safe. They were more or less probably ran by pedophiles, so they could gather potential victims. I mean, I don’t know if that’s true, but that’s what I just assume. Obviously, it’s not something that lasted, because of several factors for one putting a bunch of teenagers together in a place, that allows them to do a lot more deviant activities than they would at someplace like a public mall, was probably not the smartest idea. But let me continue. The place that the first show was recorded, The Knights Of Columbus, was when we opened for the band TEMPTER. Also on that recording, which was recorded on the same boombox that we recorded the demo songs with, you can also hear Mark and John. They’re the two idiots that keep yelling “Evil Chucky”.”If I understood you right, ‘Power Of Darkness’ originally wasn’t part of the “Death By Metal” demo and was added later, to second version of it… That’s a bit confusing, since it was already mentioned as a bonus track on the first version, the one with the photo of you three… So, has that photo cover version been re-released at some point as well maybe?
“You have to remember, the first rehearsal tapes that got out were done by John Gross and Mark Conrad. They called them demos, but in fact they were just rehearsal tapes. The first version, that went out to tape traders, did not have ‘Power Of Darkness’ on it. ‘Power Of Darkness’ was added later, after a second second run of tapes were being made up. See, you have to remember, we didn’t make these tapes in bulk. We made these tapes one at a time for tape traders. At the beginning we would sit there and dub them in Chuck’s room one at a time and send them out one at a time. So the first few tapes that we sent out only had the songs ‘Legion Of Doom’, ‘Evil Dead’, ‘Mantas’, ‘Demon’s Flight’ and ‘Death By Metal’. I do think later ‘Demon’s Flight’ was dropped off of it, as well as ‘Rise Of Satan’ was never put on it. And ‘Power Of Darkness’ was added. It is actually why it says it’s a bonus track. It’s a bonus track, because it wasn’t on the original pressing tapes that we put out. It was later added to the second pressing. It’s confusing, trust me. I mean when you have three different guys, sometimes four, decided to not be lazy and do something, sending off different tapes, with different recordings, different times, to different tape traders around the world, so yes, it does get confusing and yes, there’s different versions of it out there and yes, dates are also messed up, because some people would get the wrong date, because they would get a date that they thought had happened or a date that they received is not necessary the date that it was made.”Metal Archives has listed the “Death By Metal” demo release as September 07, 1984 and your second live show at Knights Of Columbus Hall was on September 01, 1984. So, when was the ShowBiz Pizza show then? And did you really release “Death By Metal” after you had already played two live shows?
“I’m not really sure, because I don’t think that date is correct. I used to have the flyer for that show, but it didn’t have a date, at least not that I remember. I do know the second time we played with TEMPTER, a second time at the Knights Of Columbus Hall, we played as DEATH and a lot of people seem to think that is also a MANTAS show. It has been recorded and put out as a MANTAS show, because Freddy at the time was doing that. See, here’s where it gets confusing. You have to remember Freddy was kicked out of MANTAS, and then we became DEATH during the weeks that he was kicked out of MANTAS. He was still sending out tapes as MANTAS. We got back together only because the guitar players that Chuck tried out didn’t work and eventually, we defaulted back to using Freddie. By that time we were called DEATH. However, still some confusion happens with some of the live tapes, because of the one that we played the second time opening for the band TEMPTER. We had changed the name to DEATH by then, but people were still referring to us as MANTAS. And I’m pretty sure that’s even more confusing now. Like I said, it’s so convoluted and so confusing. It’s no wonder people don’t know the real story.”
According to those dates, the name change from MANTAS to DEATH must have been sometime after your second live show… You already said that you were calling yourselves MANTAS only a few months before changing the name… So, do you recall when you exactly decided to do that and how it actually happened? I mean, did you just met for a rehearsal and someone then said, “I think we should re-name the band to DEATH…” and the rest of you said just “OK” or how did that happen in reality?
“So for starters, it was a power move on Chuck’s play. That’s exactly what it was. It was nothing but that. It was Chuck’s parents house, Chuck’s parents house garage, thus Chuck’s garage and I’m guessing Chuck’s family pushed him and said that the band should be his band. Because it was their garage. So, in order to make the band his he had to demolish what we were and restart the band fresh. And this leads back to the prior answer, when I said that Freddy was kicked out and where a lot of the confusion comes from. Because during the time he was kicked out, which was several weeks, he still considered the band his and he called it by the band name that he came up with, which was MANTAS. However, Chuck and I continued on as DEATH. As a matter fact, it was during that break, when Fred wasn’t with us, that together, Chuck and I, wrote the song ‘Beyond The Unholy Grave’. And the main reason why this happened is, because at the time I was living at Chuck’s house. And the times that I was living there, Chuck and I on weekends would rent VHS horror movies from the video store and a lot of the stuff we were getting into was the Italian horror films by Lucio Fulci. So we were watching a lot of stuff like “City Of The Living Dead” or “Gates Of Hell”, as it’s known as in the States, also “7 Doors Of Death” or “The Beyond”, as it’s known everywhere else – and even “House By The Cemetery” and stuff like that. I do know that ‘Beyond The Unholy Grave’ was based on the movie “Let Sleeping Corpses Lie”, otherwise known as “The Living Dead At The Manchester Morgue”, which I believe was the version of the movie we had rented and watched. So despite what DEATH became later, the first initial lyrical influences were all influenced by the horror movies we were watching. That’s why “Scream Bloody Gore” is a complete homage to horror movies. After that he changed direction. It’s obvious that even on “Leprosy” he went in a complete different direction with his lyrical style. But before we continue, I’m going to show you two specific things off of Google, which will show you exactly the time frames of when the stuff happened. Not because of someone saying it, because I can basically prove with facts time frames. The first is, I’m going to show you exactly from Google, the timeframe when the movie “Evil Dead” premiered at drive-in movie theaters in Florida.. Secondly, I’m going to show you a Google search for the ShowBiz Pizza () in Altamonte Springs and the timeframe that it was a teen club on Friday nights this also shows the timeframe being in 1984. However, the narrative in so-called facts, in Chuck’s book and other things, continue to lie, including Freddy’s lie that the band was together in 1983. This is a lie and I can tell you why. The first time we got together with the three of us, we went to see “Evil Dead” at the drive-in theater. If you see the timeframe, it says “Evil Dead” was in drive-in theaters in June 1984. The first show that we played as MANTAS was at a ShowBiz pizza at a teen club, again the date says 1984. The reason I’m showing you this is because it has always always always been told differently. I have to prove that they have lied over and over again about when Chuck created the band. And the fact that he did not create the band. Freddie and I were jamming together weeks before meeting him.”When Rick was kicked out of the band, how serious were you and Chuck in trying to find a replacement for him? I mean, did you put any ads in zines or newspapers or something like that or was it more like that you just continued on as a two piece and didn’t bother for a while at all? How was it for you to work with Chuck alone? Was there a difference in the writing process during that time?
“Honestly, I think Freddy was kicked out, because Chuck wanted to try out new people. I think I had mentioned before that we had tried out two other guitar players that went to Chuck’s school… Unfortunately they didn’t work out at all, because they wanted to play more of what was popular at the time, which was more like Hair Metal. They totally were not into extreme Metal at all. As a matter of fact, the term extreme Metal didn’t exist back then, so I guess you would say more underground Metal. The guys that we tried out really didn’t work. I mean, I’m partially responsible for getting Freddie back in the band, because I kind of teased Chuck after the two other guys didn’t work out, because you gotta remember, we also had the guy Dave, who tried out on bass, who was also one of Chuck’s friends. By the time we got through two more guitar players, I was like “Chuck, that’s three strikes. You’re out dude, there’s no other alternative but to give me a try.” I did try to go to one of my friends before Freddy. A guy I knew, who played Metal, but he was more into playing stuff like IRON MAIDEN and more melodic Metal. I do think eventually he would’ve worked out, because him and Chuck had a lot of the same influences. However, he just didn’t seem to be interested, so it kind of forfeited back to getting Freddy back. However, I can tell you this much, before Freddie coming back into the band, Chuck and I worked on several songs. One of the foundations for ‘Beyond The Unholy Grave’ is what we worked on, the other stuff that we wrote at that time was ‘Reign Of Terror’. I liked working with Chuck, because he had a lot better grasp on what he was trying to create. However, I was very limited at my drumming skills and I think that also frustrated him. He wanted to do stuff with more double bass drumming in it. As a matter of fact, I remember it was during that time, when Freddie was out of the band, that Chuck and I drove around and listened to the DEATHSTRIKE demo, and I do recall that the first song has double bass drums. And I member Chuck telling me “This is how I want you to play. You need to start learning how to play like this…” So, even back then he was beginning to wanting to evolve musically. However, my skills as I said lacked, I was just a Punk drummer. I didn’t know how to play on a double bass kit. I didn’t have a double bass kit. I only had a five piece, with a single bass drum. And back then double pedals weren’t really popular and I wasn’t really well off at all. I was a poor kid, so I could only afford what I could afford – and I was like, his parents aren’t gonna buy me equipment – and my parents definitely were out of the picture by that point. But we did work together on stuff and what I could do with my limited skills, I tried to push through and that’s why I was doing kind of early pseudo blast beats and stuff like that in a song like ‘Baptized In Blood’.”When exactly did Rick return to the band and was there any bad blood between you guys at first? Did you have to convince Rick to rejoin? What was the reason that you decided to work with Rick again anyway? Was it just because it was quite difficult at the time to find a guitar player who was into this extreme form of music?
“Well, you kind of sort of answered that question with the question and you’re exactly right. It was just because there was no one else that we could find. We did try to find people and no one else wanted to do it. We tried it. Us, just the two piece – and it really wasn’t working. It was really frustrating to try to find people back then into the type of music we were playing. I mean, we were just looking in our local area, so it wasn’t like we were reaching out too far. We weren’t looking in places like Tampa, we lived in Altamonte Springs, which is a suburb of Orlando. I didn’t own a car and if I did have to do anything with a vehicle. I’d have to borrow my mom‘s van on weekends. I didn’t drive very far at all. I usually was told to stay in town, usually within a 7 to 8 mile radius. Chuck had just recently got a car himself, but I don’t believe he drove very far either. As he still remained in high school while the rest of us idiots dropped out. I ended up going to community college to get my GED, but I did quit the high school. I was forced to endure, because that cesspool was a super toxic environment of assholes, cunts, bitches and dicks! And so when I lived with Chuck, I would ride the bus all the way out to the Seminole community college to take classes for my GED. And if I wasn’t living with Chuck at the time, I was staying with a girlfriend or some other friends houses at the time. See, I was really living in a lot of different places back then. But back to why Freddie was pretty much brought back into the band was because, yes there was no one else. Did he have bad feelings or harsh feelings? Sure, probably. But Freddy is good at faking things. I was pretty naive myself back then… I mean this was when I was still a teenager. I don’t even think I knew what the word narcissist was or what it meant. I don’t even think until recently, with the internet, most people didn’t understand what that is. Look, I’m not gonna call anybody anything in this. I’m just gonna tell you how it was and basically if there was any harsh feelings, which obviously there is because all these years later, he hates me and I hate him, but at the time he didn’t show it.”Why did you release the “Death By Metal” demo once again after the band’s name change instead of coming up with a totally new release right away?
“Well, that wasn’t my idea at all. As a matter of fact, I think it was just kind of like an ego thing between Chuck and Freddy and I know you won’t understand it, even if I explain it. But I will attempt to do my best. See, what I think happened was bringing Freddy back into the band meant bringing some of his songs back into the band. And I think that was one of the conditions. So, here you had him saying “I’ll come back as long as we get to play my songs and I get to write more songs.” But then I think, on the other side you had Chuck, who said “OK, well if that’s gonna be, what it’s gonna be, then it’s gonna be my band’s songs and my band is not MANTAS. My band is DEATH.” So, you know, there was a lot of male swaggering, dick measuring and competition going on, even back then. And that’s generally what it was. Now I know, if people are gonna read that, they’re gonna take it out of context. They’re not gonna understand it. They’re gonna take it for whatever they think it is, but that’s literally what it was. It was like from Chuck’s stand point – “OK, if we’ve gotta take this guy back, then he needs to know that it’s my band and my band is not his band” and then from Freddie’s side it was like “OK well, if I’m coming back, we’re gonna play my songs, because I think my songs are good and I’m gonna write new songs that I think are good.” And that’s what ended up becoming the songs for “Reign Of Terror”. And I think the only reason that Chuck only put the song ‘Reign Of Terror’ on the release was because it was kind of his way to say “Look, I’m gonna have a song, that’s at least all mine and all the way my song in my band.” And then it comes to another thing, where we recorded that demo, was the first true studio demo. We recorded it in the back of a music store in downtown Orlando. That particular music store was a store that Freddy knew everyone there and Freddy also had all his guitars worked on there. So, in a way, it was like we were getting the favor done because of Freddy. So, Chuck probably felt obligated. Now I know that Freddy had ‘Corpse Grinder’. That was his song all the way through and Chuck had ‘Reign Of Terror’. That was his song all the way through. But the rest of the songs were quick collaborations between everyone. However, ‘Zombie’, which is an instrumental, was Chuck’s song total. It was written while we were still called MANTAS, but also retconned like a lot of the other songs. The rest of the songs, like ‘Summoned To Die’, ‘Witch Of Hell’ and ‘Slaughterhouse’, yeah those were collaborations between them musically. Lyrically I still had free range to write everything. And on the song ‘Reign Of Terror’, Chuck and I wrote that together, very much how we wrote ‘Power Of Darkness’ together, ‘Baptized In Blood’ together, other tracks that the majority of people would later hear as DEATH tracks on “Scream Bloody Gore”. So the songs I wrote the lyrics for in both MANTAS and in DEATH got retconned later into DEATH album songs.”Were the other songs, that ended up on the “Reign Of Terror” demo, written again as a three-piece or have some of them just been created by Chuck and yourself?
“I think I answered that one a bit already. However, I can tell you all the songs that Chuck and I wrote without Freddy. I think that would be a lot easier, easier to explain. Because, you have to remember, Freddy was not fired once, but twice. Three times if you count the time he was fired after “Leprosy”. So let’s get this straight before I continue. He was fired the first time when we were still MANTAS. The day he was fired is when Chuck came to me and said he wanted to change the name of the band. I actually preferred the name DEATH, however I was pretty positive that there was a Punk band called that. And I was right. There was a Punk band called DEATH. Because there is a band from Detroit, with three brothers, all African-Americans and they were called DEATH. And they had been around since the 1970s. And that’s even ironic, as I just looked it up. In 2009 they reformed and they are still active to present day. But that’s a conversation for another time. The question was, what songs Chuck and I wrote. And I can tell you the songs that we wrote together started with the “Infernal Death” demo. There’s this song ‘Infernal Death’. Freddy wants to try to say he wrote that, but he was not present when that was written. ‘Baptized In Blood’ and ‘Archangel”, those were the songs that we worked on the first time when Freddie was fired. Now, I know you’re gonna ask. Why didn’t we put those on the “Reign Of Terror” demo and I had mentioned that before. It’s because we were getting that demo as a favor and because it was Freddy that established getting that demo. He more or less kind of said, these are gonna be songs that were co-written on this demo. That also explains why the following demo, which is “Infernal Death”, was all of Chuck’s songs. After that, there were two other songs that Chuck and I wrote after the second time Freddy was fired and those songs are ‘Rigor Mortis’ and the song ‘Seizure’.”You already mentioned, that you had drawn the original MANTAS and DEATH logos… tell us a bit more about their origin. Have you been the only one in the band that had any drawing skills? Did you have to come up with various versions until the other guys also liked the logos or was it always the first sketch that was agreed on and used?
“With the MANTAS logo, I did the logo and drawing on the demo cover, with the hand rising out of the grave. I did originally attempted to make the logo resemble an actual Manta-ray – a huge sting ray like fish. That’s how it originally had a tail on the logo, that eventually became the devil’s tail. But those were just sketches and thrown away. I basically drew everything with either a ball point pen or a small sharpie marker. Also all the hand writing on the demo covers is my handwriting. I’ve shown you a comparison side by side of my hand writing and Chuck’s. You can clearly see the difference in our penmanship. There’s this completely different story when it comes to the origin of the DEATH logo. The version “they” tell and then the truth. If people want to believe the false narrative that’s been told, then there’s nothing I’m going to say or even show evidence of that will change their minds. I’ve dealt with this for years. It doesn’t change anything and usually it divides the room. The false narrative is that Chuck drew it and designed it. I’ve even seen some fake evidence of a pseudo version of the logo that predates the original logo design to attempt to make it more authentic that he created it. However, I have no idea if in fact that website can even substantiate its validity. So with that said let me now proceed by showing evidence of my claims. As I’ve said many times in many instances I am the original creator of the logo. I designed and drew the logo. My first design of just the lettering style of the logo is presented on the flyer from the first DEATH show ever, the flyer of the show that we played with the band TEMPTER. It was all hand drawn by me – as well as using cut and paste tape techniques, often applied by baby band flyers back in the day. I drew the first “stick letter” idea for the logo. The flyer has my hand drawn art and logo (for TEMPTER), my handwriting, a group photo of the band TEMPTER, but the most important of all facts – my first ever design of the DEATH logo… Also note: the guy in the far right of the TEMPTER photo with his hand in a huge glove… that’s Butch Gonzales, who later played bass in MASSACRE for the “Second Coming” demo. So that’s my letters, my design, not Chuck’s, that would go on to become the DEATH logo once I added all the other details to it. This proves that I designed the logo from the beginning – but the lies and altered narratives created by Eric Grief and the family try to tell a different version. I had been designing the logo since the beginning and the day Chuck had suggested changing the name, which was only about two weeks prior to this show. There really wasn’t that much time that passed before going from MANTAS to DEATH. Now eventually I designed the original logo design – the design everyone eventually knows. However, now here’s where the story purposely blurs the lines between the original logo, designed and drawn by me, and the one version that says Chuck did it. Because the truth is, Chuck simply traced my original design. See, this is where the narrative is cleverly and fiendishly reconstructed from saying that I, Kam Lee, drew the logo design to representing that Chuck “drew“ the logo. He simply utilized an old technique by placing a blank sheet of paper over the top of my original logo design and simply traced it with his hand. However, to further explain my logos original design compared to Chuck’s traced version, all one has to do it compare them side by side. For one that makes the clearest point, is that in my design I put 666 around the “T” that subtly makes an inverted cross. Something Chuck omitted from his traced design. That’s really the clearest and most accurate description of the whole logo design story. Besides the different subtle details and textures between my design and the one he redrew. Now, if those who still want to see the logo being drawn by Chuck sit well within their minds, then of course him tracing over my design is an acceptable choice for them to feel comfortable in their version of the narrative, and they’re welcomed to remain peacefully pacified with that cleaver slight of hand narrative. Like any good illusion, the less the viewer knows or sees, the more believable the illusion becomes. Again, I’m not here to change anyone’s minds. I’m simply here to present facts and show evidence of the reality. I’m not going to argue about it, but simply let the evidence presented show for itself and let people come to their own conclusions, based upon that evidence versus the false narrative they’ve been told. There’s a black and white photo of us, where you can see the DEATH logo I designed behind us. I drew this logo by hand on a white sheet with Sharpie markers. Above Chuck’s right shoulder, between him and me, you can actually see one of the sixes from my 666. That original backdrop was destroyed many many years ago, when the storage unit I had it in with my drums and other things was flooded in a flash flood storm back in 1987.”After you had changed the name to DEATH you still continued to release a whole lot of rehearsal tapes, but also the three regular demos “Reign Of Terror”, “Infernal Death” and “Rigor Mortis”. Did you also record “Infernal Death” and “Rigor Mortis” at that music store in downtown Orlando, where you had already recorded “Reign Of Terror” or did you record them somewhere else?
“I believe “Infernal Death” was recorded by the same guy, that recorded us in the music store, but recorded at his home. By the way, the store was called Music City. It no longer exists today. That was also the final recording that Freddy was on. It was shortly after that, that he was kicked out a second time. Chuck accused him of being a liar. I never got the full details of why, just a very brief mention that Chuck no longer wanted to associate with him, because he felt that he had lied to Chuck. I’m sure it was petty and I’m sure it was probably over money, because eventually Chuck would still use him again for the “Leprosy” album, but that’s another story. “Rigor Mortis” was recorded just by Chuck and myself in his garage on a 4-track recorder. I’m not 100% positive, but I think by that time Chuck had either borrowed or purchased a 4-track cassette recorder. And we recorded that demo in his garage. That was also the final demo recording I would have been on.”Did you create any cover artwork for those demos? And did you also release different versions of them, with different tracklists?
“I’m not sure if any covers were actually made – I never drew anything after the DEATH Live cover art (the tape was exactly entitled “Live – Dec. 30th 84, Ruby’s, Tampa, FLA” – Frank). That cover was the last drawing I did for DEATH. Also my hand writing on the side as well as my original stick letters for the DEATH logo. Not Chuck, but me.”
Perhaps even more so than the regular demos, the early DEATH material gained enormous popularity over here in Germany thanks to two legendary live recordings. I’m talking about the shows on November 09, 1984 and December 30, 1984, both at Ruby’s Pub in Tampa, Florida. I know you played as support for NASTY SAVAGE on December 30, 1984, but what about the November 09, 1984 show… was that a headlining gig? Please tell us a bit more about these two shows, for example, how you managed to get the support slot for NASTY SAVAGE, how many people showed up for the shows and what kind of reactions you got.
“Well, for starters, that first show was the flyer I shared. The show we played with TEMPTER. That was also really just another example of “the illusion“ of sound. What I mean by that is, that a live tape went out around the underground and people assumed possibly that that show was maybe a decent show. But I can honestly tell you, the attendance of that show was literally four people plus the opening band and maybe some employees that worked the bar. So, maybe a total of 10 to 12 people altogether. I remember in the audience there were the two Guillotine guys – cause as I said, they were the ones that literally recorded almost every single rehearsal and live tape that exists from back then, because they were trading those tapes everywhere. Also a girlfriend of Fred’s and his chubby friend Mike. That was it. No one else attended. But if you listen to that tape, you can hear a couple of idiots screaming “evil Chucky” between each song. That was Mark and John. Honestly, it was worse than having a bunch of redneck bikers screaming for us to play ‘Free Bird’. How we ended up opening for NASTY SAVAGE is another story. See, we used to go down frequently to watch NASTY SAVAGE play at Ruby’s Pub. There were many times that we would just take the trip from Orlando all the way to Brandon, Florida to catch a NASTY SAVAGE show at Ruby‘s. There was probably four or five shows that we went out to support them at and usually during those times, we would stay at Curtis Beeson‘s house. That’s where the band not only rehearsed, but Curtis had a large house that, if people remember back in the day, he carved out a big middle finger sign out of wood, painted it and put it on the roof of his house. So it was basically the fuck you house. I don’t know if there’s any photos online of that house, but it’s pretty infamous in that town. Anyways, eventually because we had gone down there so many times and supported the band, I guess, out of either sympathy or simply because we just kept bugging them, they finally allowed us to open for them. And that was the infamous show that ended up being the New Year’s evil show. If anything that anybody could take away from this is simply this, we weren’t simply just a band that was an overnight success. We really had to work hard to get where we were, but we were determined and that I think makes a big difference, at least Chuck and I especially. We’re pushing the band in all different ways. Yes, Freddie had his moments, because he was so good at the bullshit public relations part of the music business. Honestly, each one of us played an intricate role in that band, and I think that’s why that band, regardless of the in fighting that occurred later, if we had not been teenagers and maybe if we had someone that was an honest manager, that could’ve come in and given us advice, rather than it being onesided advise with just a particular agenda… sure things could’ve probably have been different. But the universe played it differently and decided that we needed to be separated to make a much bigger stamp in our lives.”
You already mentioned that Rick was kicked out of the band sometime after “Infernal Death” and that your personal last recording with DEATH was the “Rigor Mortis” demo… So, what happened between you and Chuck that lead to the split?“I think by then when “Infernal Death” was recorded was when we really began having disagreements. It started getting weird and uncomfortable. Shortly after we recorded it, Chuck was once again saying he was done working with Freddy. I can’t remember exactly what the reason was this second time. I mean it could have been a combination of different things, but teenager angst and dysfunctional behavior, combined with passive aggressive tendencies and a bit of narcissism probably contributed to the fallout. I was around for a few months more, but shortly after recording “Rigor Mortis” was when Chuck and I had our own falling out. I ate the last bowl of Apple Jacks.”
I almost forgot to talk about Scott Carlson and Matt Olivo from REPULSION… they were part of the DEATH line-up sometime in 1985 if I’m not mistaken, so please tell us a bit about this period. When did they join exactly, how long have they been rehearsing with you and why did it not work out in the end?
“Well, they didn’t actually join. That’s kind of a loose interpretation. They came down to see what we were all about. They took a trip. They didn’t actually bring any equipment, so they didn’t have anything to play on. They just generally came down to hang out with Chuck for a week. During that time they did watch us perform at a show. It was just Chuck and me, as we opened for the Punk band BATTALION OF SAINTS.
Ironically, there’s somewhere a video of that show or part of that show, but for some reason, the person who shot the video, shot it from all the way back in the venue. So, it’s a far away video and it’s very messed up like almost if the tape was eaten at one point. But as far as Matt and Scott, like I said they didn’t really join.
There is that one photo of all of us together behind Chuck’s house in the woods, but that was just a group of idiots being idiots. I’m the kid in the SLAYER shirt, because truth is, I was the only actual one listening to and supporting those heavy bands back then. Matt and Scott just came down to watch a couple rehearsals. Watch us play that show, and Matt actually held a microphone for me at that show, because they did not have a boom stand and only had a straight stand. And since I was playing drums, it was difficult to sing to a straight stand. So, he was on the side, holding the mic stand, acting as a human boom stand. I do think REPULSION came as a result of them coming down to watch us play. They weren’t REPULSION yet, just GENOCIDE.”
What have you done in the year between the release of the “Rigor Mortis” demo and MASSACRE’s first demo “Aggressive Tyrant” in April of 1986? Was it clear for you right from the start that you would continue to play music or was there a period of time at first in which you considered to throw in the towel completely?
“I was out of DEATH in the end of the summer of 1985 and was joining MASSACRE in November of 1985. So, it was just a few months. I moved from my mother’s home to go live with my Aunt and Uncle in their home in Seffner, Florida, closer to Brandon, Florida. Once there in August, I started work as a night cashier at a convenient store. It wasn’t too long I had been working there that I met Allen West, the original guitarist for MASSACRE, who later went on to XECUTIONER / OBITUARY, as he was trying to buy beer off me. And I card him, asked for ID and denied him the purchase, as he was under age. He would occasionally come in to the store and try to buy beer and we eventually sparked up a conversation. If anyone had ever met Allen back in those days, he was always a very easy going guy, with an open personality. In hindsight I do think he originally just wanted to soften me up, so I would eventually sell him beer. I never broke. But that’s how I eventually ended up joining MASSACRE, because he was aware of who I was and him, along with the other members of MASSACRE, had been to that New Year’s Eve NASTY SAVAGE show that we played. And they all were impressed with DEATH that night. I really do believe that show alone altered and changed the Brandon Metal scene, which would later influence the whole Tampa Death Metal scene. As key members of those bands were in the audience that night.”You mentioned that you joined MASSACRE in November 1985, which obviously means that I didn’t really do my homework, because I always thought you were one of the founding members… So, did the line-up already consist of Scott Blackwood (bass), Bill Andrews (drums), JP Chartier (guitars) and Allen West (guitars) at the time? Did they have any other vocalists before you joined?
“It was Mike Borders on bass, Bill on drums, JP and Allen on guitars and they had a guy named Brent or something as a singer. But the most important fact is they weren’t even more than just a garage cover band, playing only Thrash covers. They had no original music. They weren’t remotely Death Metal at all. As they were playing cover songs by ANTHRAX and other stuff like that. I was asked by Allen to come and check out one of their rehearsal sessions. He drew me a crude map on the back of an old flyer. I had no car but still used my skateboard, so I decided to go and meet them. First you must understand that Seffner Florida was not an urban area. It was very much the opposite. No sidewalks, but just roughly paved roads and country streets. It’s Florida, so much of the neighborhoods are these pocket communities built in and around redeveloped swampland. You would have these 3 to 4 block suburban homes nestled neatly inbetween swamps and forest areas and then a couple miles of farms houses. So, basically you could be going along a few miles of civilization and turn a corner and be in some kind of horror movie scene, where you’re suddenly going down the road in an area that looks like the driving scenes of the Jeepers Creepers, which by the way was filmed in Florida around the Ocala area which looks similar. The point is, it’s pretty rural. There’s no really true landmarks or anything. Just forests and swamps. And it’s Florida. We have a bunch of wildlife. Alligators, Black Bears, Panthers, bobcats, coyotes – and that’s just the shit that would eat you. But it’s rabid raccoon and armadillos, that actually carry leprosy, wild dogs and wild pigs (boar) that are more likely to attack you on a road. And last but not least the humans. (insert sarcastic tone) “Ohhh the ever so lovely human inhabitants of the Florida backwoods.” See, I didn’t know it at the time, but that area housed a large community of KKK families. Not a place a non white kid on a skateboard wants to get caught at night. I could have easily been snatched and grabbed, beaten unconscious, lynched and tied to a couple of cinder blocks and dumped into alligator infested waters and no one would have ever known. But that horror scene didn’t happen – instead I got lost, following Allen’s crude map. It eventually took me 2 hours of trying to find the right place. It was Billy’s family home. And once I realized it was closer than I expected, I relearned a different route that would take me down main roads and keep my out of the backwoods. But back to the band. Yeah, I came in as just an invitation to their rehearsal session. I later discovered it was more like a recruitment event. They wanted to know if I would be interested in joining. I told them sure, but the first thing was they needed to change their style. I wasn’t going to do vocals like Joey from ANTHRAX or anything like that… I told them it had to be more Death Metal. I think I said more raw, more aggressive and they agreed, that’s the direction they wanted to go as well.”I suppose due to the fact that Bill Andrews was already playing drums in MASSACRE, you probably never thought about playing drums yourself any longer, did you? So, did you feel comfortable to turn into the frontman of a band, all of a sudden? I mean, it’s one thing to be able to hide behind a drumkit and do a lot of screaming, but a totally different thing to stand in the center of the action, face to face with the crowd. Did you already have enough self-confidence for that at that age?
“I knew the moment I picked up my drums from Chuck’s house, I was done with playing drums. I felt more confident and comfortable as a vocalist and the drums impeded my ability to do vocals like Joey the way I wanted. So, it was always my intention to become a vocalist. In truth I did not think I had a chance at being a frontman in a Metal band in 1985. To be honest, I was still very interested in doing Hardcore Punk and felt I had a better chance at being a frontman for a Punk band. Just remember in 1985 no Metal bands anywhere had an Asian frontman. Unless it was an entire Asian band. People forget the challenges of doing this in a time when it wasn’t even remotely acceptable. Not only were we Death Metal, but most people would harshly judge me because of my skin and features. Especially in a very Southern raciest community like Tampa areas. I used to hear the negative comments all the time. And I even know certain “so called” established Death Metal acts from the area that talked about a lot of shit about me as well about my race. They’ll deny it now, because their platform has them as well established respected band, but I recall the ones who made comments about it, who laughed and scoffed. See, I have a long memory when it comes to the people who did me wrong. I don’t forgive nor forget. I’m not going to backdown against these bully types. I didn’t when I was a teenager and 40 years later I still won’t. Certain fans don’t understand why I’m not supporting the “Tampa scene”. It’s simple. The Tampa scene didn’t support me. Only certain individuals whom I still associate with now have ever been there, but the majority are still in that backwards backwoods mindset and it’s not my problem nor my job to fix that. It’s very cliche and very elitist and it’s all a bit of a joke. Fans across the globe tend to think it’s a great community of like minded individuals that are all buddy buddy and hang out. Truth is it’s a very petty and toxic community of jealousy and envy and hate. Not everyone, there are a few individuals that are genuinely good people, but the overall community is very toxic. I guess my biggest confidence in me, standing in front of a room full of toxic racist pricks, was to say a big FUCK YOU – to every single person who scoffed and laughed and said it couldn’t be done. If anything I’ll always fight against the odds for my place. It’s been my way of life for all my life. That’s what gives me the confidence to go up onstage and be a frontman.”What lead to the change of your vocal style then, from the aggressvive screaming, towards the wellknown deep grunting, which pretty much marked the origin of Death Metal vocals the way we know them these days?
“I wanted to be more primal about it, more primitive. I wanted to do something hair raising. I remember hearing a lot of bands from back then. Although my tape trading was pretty much slowed down after moving to my Aunt and Uncles home. I still found ways to get tapes. I met a few guys in town. Mark Odechuck of PAINEATER was one who had been in the area and he was always sharing tapes with me. He got me to hear NECROPHAGIA’s first demo and other recordings from different bands around that time. I basically listened to a lot of stuff and was thinking how to make my voice more powerful. I used to be raised around some large dogs. I remember hearing the dogs do this lower bark and growl when they would be feeding. I used to have to go feed them their bowls and it was pretty scary at time being a kid inbetween Rottweilers and Pitbulls when they would do those intimidating growls. I wanted to bring that aesthetically to my vocals. I think in the beginning it was more of a barking style. The growl didn’t really get developed until a bit later. I would switch around, trying to find my vocal footing. It was a bit of a sloppy dance routine vocally in the beginning. I mean, I knew what I wanted to do, but wasn’t still 100% confident in what I was doing. So, a lot of the early stuff was just experimental, as it always has been with anything that I’ve done musically. It’s always an experiment. It’s always changing. It’s always developing even today, 43 years later, everything I’ve done has always been trying to push the envelope a bit more, trying to do something a little bit different here and there. I still find myself all this time later, surprising myself with some kind of vocalization technique. And a lot of stuff that I do, I’m not being taught. I’m not learning it from anywhere. I was just doing it myself, experimenting, like a mad scientist in a lab.”Did any of the songs, which later appeared on the “Aggressive Tyrant” debut demo, already exist when you joined the band? Were you still involved in the writing process of them?
“The only song they had musically written was ‘Death In Hell’. But they just had the music down. I went in and did the vocal arrangements. The song ‘Aggressive Tyrant’ was a song that Alan West was writing at the time. I completely went in and wrote all the lyrics and arrangements for that song. Lyrically that’s based off “The Omen” movies. More specifically “The Omen Part 3″… the one with Sam Neil playing Damien. ‘Mutilated’ was a song that I wrote with Alan, hanging out at his house. We completely wrote that song together from scratch. Lyrically that song is based on the very first “Nightmare On Elm Street”. So really, they didn’t really start writing originals until I came into the band and it was my direction to turn them into a Death Metal band.”You said that Mike Borders was already on bass when you joined, so Scott, the original bass player, had already been history at the time obviously. And since JP Chartier also didn’t play guitar on the first demo, it seems he wasn’t long in the line-up anymore either, as he and Allen left to form XECUTIONER, who would later became OBITUARY. But what exactly lead to this split? What happened?
“Well JP came to only one rehersal after I joined. He heard what I was doing on his song ‘Infestation Of Death’ and said he hated it and quit. Guess he thought my vocals were bad. Allen was another story. We had a show set up to play, would have been the first show with me on vocals. Suddenly he just stopped coming to rehearsal. No explanation. Just a no call, no show situation. We were getting down to the wire and Billy just decided that he was done with Allen. Mike and I were very concerned as we didn’t want to just cancel the show. We had only 12 days before the show and no guitarist. We had to come up with something fast.”
Was it your idea to get Rick in the band to replace them? Based on your past experiences with him, weren’t you a little bit skeptical if he would work out?
“Well truth was, we were desperate and needed someone fast. And again, this was 1985. No one was playing Death Metal. Guitarists at the time hated Death Metal. We even tried out Trevor (OBITUARY), but he couldn’t play leads. And we wanted someone who could at least fake the solos, especially since we had original songs like ‘Aggressive Tyrant’, ‘Death In Hell’, ‘Mutilated’ and ‘Infestation Of Death’ already. I even think Mike Borders went to ask Trey of MORBID ANGEL if he could sit in on the show, but Trey was not interested as he was fully dedicated to MORBID ANGEL. So, eventually I decided to reach out to Freddy.
I called him at Mike Borders house. We talked on the phone and I told him, I had a band and we needed a guitarist. He wanted to meet, so Mike drove me and himself down to Orlando from Plant City (like 62 miles), just so we could meet and convince him to do the show. He eventually agreed, but he wanted to be in the band as a permanent member. He moved into my apartment that I had just gotten and we began diligently working on MASSACRE material right away. ‘Clangor Of War’ was the first song we did together in MASSACRE. Did I have cation when working with him yet again? You would think one would, regarding the facts we all know now, but you really must remember how difficult it truly was back then to find a guitarist willing to play Death Metal.”Is it true that the second MASSACRE demo “Chamber Of Ages” was already released two months after “Aggressive Tyrant”? And was Rick already involved in the writing of the material on “Chamber Of Ages” or did he just play Alan’s parts on the recording?
“As far as the new demo material, that was Freddy and Mike and Billy working together on that stuff. With me they were integrating the vocal patterns. It was truly a collective effort. I think we just got super serious and buckled down for weeks straight and wrote all those songs together in that time frame. Allen had only written the first demo songs. By the time we did the second demo, that was all new material written in the following weeks after Freddy was in the band. It really did come together rather quickly.”
Where did you record both demos and was the Metal underground already full of praise for both releases at the time or did you still get more of a mixed feedback on the still rather new style you were playing?“The first demo was recorded in a studio in Plant City, I believe a place Mike Borders set up. I honestly can not remember the studio at all. The second demo was done at this guys house. He had a studio set up in his house. I don’t think he knew what to make of us. I think we scared the shit out of him, because he eventually kicked us out and refused to finish recording my vocals. There’s an unfinished version of ‘Cryptic Realms’ from that recording session. The reason it’s unfinished with no vocals is because he kicked us out. As far as the reception of the tape from the underground, we didn’t get much feedback at all. It was very quiet and not many people were actually giving us any sort of response. That didn’t come until years later, after the band split up in 1987. I mean, sure a few friends said some comments, but over all no one was talking. I’m thinking, maybe it was at first shocking, but perhaps like with anything new, it took awhile to gain momentum. Then the next thing you know, Death Metal bands changed over night. They started popping up everywhere. I’m not saying it was solely because of us, it was more or less synchronization around the world. I’m still going to say the true seed is sprung out of HELLHAMMER and the first CELTIC FROST album. As far as guttural vocals go, the roots go back to Tom. But the Grrrrrrr in the growl, the deep tones and the more bass in the voice, the more abrupt attack in the vocal timing, the alternating range of high screams followed by barking snappy barking commands, all these certain nuances and techniques of the original Death Metal style vocals, sure I feel like I have some influence on that. Like perhaps if these were a building plane or architectural designs. At least what I was doing was a bit of the blue print. But I wasn’t the only one with the influence on those blue prints. I mean you have to give guys like Troy Dixler of SINDROME, Paul Speckmann of MASTER / DEATHSTRIKE, Killjoy of NECROPHAGIA… these men also were a very important part of the creation of the Death Metal style. They often get overlooked or ignored by the mass media. I mean even I’m not mentioned on a Google search. Sure, DEATH is mentioned, but it favors Chuck as the band’s notable leader, no mention of me nor MASSACRE even by AI standards. It’s pretty clear that the narrative is based upon biased reporting. Now I understand that attitude may come across as bitterness, it may even be considered petty on my part, but if you made something, created it, formed it from the ground up and you weren’t given credit for it, but others around you did, others who barely lifted a finger or did much heavy lifting at all swooped in and took credit. And years later you’re barely recognized for the effort. How would that make you feel? Bitter? Angry? Used? I know “the underground “ community knows, there are those like yourself that knows the deeper untold truths and I appreciate the support of fans, but the overall outside world has been told a completely different story. And it’s why 43 years later I’m still trying to tell mine.”
Many fans have been waiting a long time to hear properly recorded versions of the old demo songs that you were involved in, and the great news is, that it will finally happen, as you will be re-recording all the early demo recordings of MANTAS, DEATH and MASSACRE with the current MASSACRE line-up…“Yes, I’m going to record a special three part album: “Legacy Of DEATH – Volume 1, 2 and 3”. “Volume 1 (1984)” will feature songs from MANTAS, “Volume 2 (1985)” songs from DEATH and “Volume 3 (1986)” songs from MASSACRE. We are also going to do the DEATH demo “Reign Of Terror” along with ‘Curse Of The Priest’ as a bonus track. MASSACRE will also be performing the entire MANTAS “Death By Metal” demo live in 2026 at the Killtown Deathfest in Copenhagen, Denmark.”
You had already re-recorded the MANTAS track ‘Evil Dead’ with MASSACRE on the “Ancient Evil” EP from 2021 and the MASSACRE demo songs ‘Aggressive Tyrant’, ‘Clangor Of War’, ‘Infestation Of Death’ and ‘Perpetual Domination’ on the “Massacred” EP from 2019, which you released under your own name. Will you just include these recordings on the “Legacy Of DEATH” releases or will they be re-recorded again?
“We’re re-recording it all. I have not found a label yet. I want to use it as leverage for a proper label, that will make sure it’s properly released and represented. It’s my legacy that I have been a part of and now that my health and age is obviously in decline, I want to make sure it’s represented in a positive light. But we will be busy touring, so recording won’t resume until this summer. Everything else is on hold until 2027. Let me ask you personally. Do you think it’s wrong of me finally redoing these tracks after 40 + years? I know the whiny little cunts will be crying about it and no, I did not consider for a second of asking Freddy to be part of it. I hate that fucking retarded hobbit. He blew his last chance with me years ago, when he still proved he’s an untrustworthy thief and liar. Fuck him! I wouldn’t even piss on him if he was on fire! But I think we are doing a pretty decent job of bringing these classics together and making them sound good. I’m even doing my vocals to match the old me and aesthetic of the original material.”
I personally think it’s a great idea to do those recordings. I mean, if you wouldn’t do it, they probably would remain properly unrecorded forever. And you will always have a lot of pros and cons about such a project, so… But it’s a pity that Rick and yourself weren’t able to solve your problems, because even though you seem to hate him nowadays, his guitar style and tone is a big part of these songs. They need to sound dirty and raw and as close to the original versions as possible, just properly recorded instead of rehearsal- or livetape sound…“I spoke to my new guy Eric Little, who is not only assisting me working on these songs, but he will be mixing and mastering them as well. He knows to look for that particular sound. He currently was writing the guitar sections with a similar sound as Chuck, with an amp similar to Chuck’s original Peavy. But I explained he should also do some secondary guitar work with the JCM900 Marshall. But as an engineer he explained, if we go for the same sound as Freddy, we will bring out more bass and low end, the way Fred does with his sound, but sacrifice the loud quality and more level sounds. I’m not a mix and mastering engineer, so I don’t know all the ins and outs about it, but this is the general idea of what he explained to me. He’s also a really close study of guys like Scott Burns, but also very well adapted to newer sounds with a lot of a slam Death Metal stuff, and he’s in the Black Metal band ICE… so he knows his stuff. I told him it’s more or less that whammy bar bullocks that fans look for and that particular sloppy playing. Even Chuck eventually got sick of Fred’s shit playing, but if that’s what people like about the guy, I guess we could always have the guitarist get drunk and record the parts.”
Why are you recording these songs now? What purpose does it serve?
“The simple predictable answer is the lame excuse of “tribute” and all the bla, bla, bla fake sentimental bullocks the other “so called” tribute acts are regurgitating forth to appease the masses and to make them appear saintly in the eyes of the people. Of course it’s all bullocks and bullshit. The only true answer is money. They are all just exploiting it for profit. Of course they’ll chime in about how they share a percentage of it with charity, but has anyone actually witnessed this supposed “kind act” or is it just hearsay? See that’s what makes me the bad guy. I’m the villain simply for having foresight. I refuse to believe the narrative that they are selling, because I know them as the true “snake oil salesman” (con artists) they really are. I’m not going to lie and tell you it’s to honor a specific character or individual. That’s the expected reason and the answer that makes the butt clinchers relax their sphincters and kindly except. This is the “easy answer” to give to escape the responsibility and face the accountability of the action. Music outlives its creators. The music is eternal, where the creator is mortal. Eventually we all die, but our creations live on. How many deceased artist music still moves the living? How many new fresh ears hears for the first time a song created by a long dead artist and is still moved by what they are hearing for the first time? You know, this happens always. And that artists memory is kept alive by the music they left behind. And even if a new version of the song is remade, covered or updated… it doesn’t diminish the original. It doesn’t change or make the original song any less important, nor does it diminish the original creator. It only enhances it. But to be able to have the material updated and made new, with an actual individual that helped to create those songs in the first place, that established the original material and helped to create not only a specific musical style, but help create a culture. How often has that happened? I’m making these songs now, because it’s been over 40 years that a majority of these songs were recorded and over 40 years that they were ever performed live. And I was and still am a huge part of them. This is as much my own legacy as it is the others involved. As I was one of those three individuals that wrote and created these songs. I’m not doing this to replace those old demos. The true fans will always have those original demos to listen too. I’m doing this because I can and feel after 40 years it’s my final opportunity to be able to make proper studio recordings of these classics, that will always be a part of my legacy. I’m making re-recordings and new versions of these old songs for the younger generation and the new listeners that may not necessarily ever heard the originals. But I’ve seen many many comments over the years of fans who wished they had a better quality sounding recording of these songs. People who actually want to hear a better high quality studio recording of them. So that’s part of my purpose. Part of the reason is to be able to finally make decent quality recordings of this material… the best and closest versions. And sure, we may actually be tweaking some parts, adjusting the sound and riffs to actually be more suited. Making the songs faster and tighter. Remember, this isn’t me trying to claim them as my own. I’m not trying to hide them under a banner of MASSACRE to try and make it feel like it’s our material. I’m actually admitting outright that it’s MASSACRE plays MANTAS. I honor the original versions and ideas by making sure it’s actually known as MASSACRE is covering the originals. With that I’m also incorporating a unique side to it. For example, we may take some liberties with how they are played. Maybe a bit faster, or something like a variation of the original lyrics, but rewritten to fit a more MASSACRE vibe. I’m also not singing them in typical MASSACRE growls, but going back to the style I had originally used. Of course it’s 40+ years later and my voice has matured. I’m not 16 years old anymore, hell I’m not even 36 or 46, I’m 59. But I feel I’m able to bring a more controlled and balanced approach to that screeching style of vocals and layer it with a deeper darker growling tone that hints at my own typical vocal style.”www.facebook.com/mantasofficial
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Frank Stöver