Interview prepared by Cämille, realised by Quentin and Cämille, translated by Quentin, and published in its French version in the second issue of the fanzine Maledictions (May 2024) in which also Lea (author of an interview with Tom G. Warrior, available somewhere on this website) took part.

The line-up has changed a lot since the band was formed in June 1990. You’ve admitted that it hasn’t always been easy working alongside you, but there must be other reasons. Do you think the naked photos, the use of piss, blood and cum, or your blasphemous vision, far removed from the philosophical digressions of today’s scene, have anything to do with it? And hell, how is it that the pioneer of American Black Metal is struggling to find allies??
“Maybe at the very beginning we had issues finding people to play because in the late ‘80s, we didn’t want to play Thrash Metal. And what happens is, in my opinion, these scenes that come about, like Thrash Metal, Death Metal, Black Metal, it takes so long for them to build to where normal Metalheads, normal people know about it and like it, it’s like there’s a giant delay. We were already into Death Metal and what I call Black Death Metal. The first Death Metal in my opinion was Black Metal: the SODOM EP, the HELLHAMMER EP, POSSESSED – “Seven Churches”, that kind of harder hitting stuff. We were already into that, when the majority of people were like “Wow METALLICA, SLAYER, ANTHRAX”, we were completely sick of that stuff by then and wanted to push it further. Because of that back then, it was hard to find people to go along with our vision, and a lot of people, just like today, have just a passing interest in US Black Metal and just want to find out what it’s about, but they kind of don’t love it or know it. In terms of musicians, the people that have played in PROFANATICA, we are still on good terms with, and if I called anybody or emailed or texted, they would gladly come up with riffs if we need them. There are other answers like timing has a lot to do with it, people were in other bands, pursuing different styles, and they might not have had the same vision as us but of course we’re still allies with everybody. And now, with today, what people call real Black Metal we don’t call it that. So that’s an even smaller window, people are now just thinking because you’re from the US you play US Black Metal. 90% of it is a cheap copy of the early ‘90s Black Metal that happened more so in Europe than here if that makes sense. What they call real Black Metal, is not to us. It sounds very weak, very teeny guitars, no bass, no Punk attitude. We come from a totally different slant, we’re influenced by SARCÓFAGO, POSSESSED – “Seven Churches”, the NECROVORE demo and of course this band from Seattle: NME, their “Unholy Death” was total Black Metal, but they had a lot of Punk style influence. It was already in the music. The other thing to mention, and I’ve said it a thousand times and people are probably sick of it but it’s true, is that back then – this is before the Norwegian Black Metal took off – there was us, BEHERIT, BLASPHEMY, IMPALED NAZARENE, ROTTING CHRIST, ABSU. There was a lot of bands back then doing this style of Black Death Metal, but they all sounded different. And around 1994, I just couldn’t take it anymore and I started to become very disenchanted with all the copycats and in our opinion, even the first people still believe today, and they were in PROFANATICA, that… it’s very wimpy, the music. Everybody looks tough, with spikes, baseball bats, makeup and leather but there’s really no attitude there, or heavy-pounding drums or bass. I guess we have allies but it’s kind of a smaller window now.”

John Gelso made a great contribution to the band in its early days. Why did he leave in 1992 just as you were about to record your debut album “The Raping Of The Virgin Mary”?
“Another good question, in fact this goes back to what I was saying. He wanted to pursue other interests and was a little bit burned out on the band not taking off and other bands that we felt lesser than us, that were just playing Death Metal, were kind of passing us in terms of popularity. We always tried to stick to what we like and what we know, but he wanted to pursue other interests at the time and take a break and I pleaded with him that if we just did this then pursue other interests. He didn’t want to play live either. But John Gelso was definitely an ally, we’re still in touch. In fact when we toured last time in the Seattle area where he lives, he came to see us and hung out, borrowed our guitarist’s guitar and came out with a couple of really disturbing riffs that were just in his head.”

Everything fell apart after the abortion of this first album, Osmose limited the damage by releasing the famous EP “As Tears Of Blood Stain The Altar Of Christ” with the cover initially intended for the album, in black & white rather than in color as it had been planned. When you revived the band in the early 2000s, did you think about going back to Osmose Productions, or was your relationship still strained?
“I think our relationship was strained since I was the one that definitely owed him the album, and I haven’t forgotten about that. There is a slim chance that that album will see the light of day. I don’t know what the future brings, but it is possible that the album could come out. There wasn’t really an option, I think our thing was strained. We actually, even though our front cover was painted for that, we pushed for that full color photo to be the cover, just that, the logo and the title. And we were told no by Osmose, he said it would be back then impossible to do.”

John came back in 2006, just before the release of your first album “Profanatitas De Domonatia” and left again in 2016. Why did he leave? Wasn’t that a hard blow, given everything he brought the band?
“We had another guitarist back then, whose name I won’t mention, who was always looking for something better, he played on the “Weeping In Heaven” 7”. It was really John Gelso that defined that sound that we came to play today and he was the guy with all the riffs and ideas and I would say yes or no, can we elongate that? Can we make that just keep going on and on. Me and Gelso came from a Punk background, we had these obnoxious thoughts of having one or two riffs just repeat itself and many people would be like: “Why are you doing that?”. And it’s because we can, because we like it. I like that simplicity in that pounding same drumbeat over and over. Our thought was still like we think today: fuck these people that don’t like it, this is kind of for us. But in terms of Gelso leaving, it wasn’t that hard of a blow because our style had been developed again. Believe me, I always ask him if he wants back in or wants to do something, I’m ready. But part two to that is: after 2016 we played a show at Hells Headbash in Cleveland, Ohio, and I told him: “I’m going to continue with the band and start to push it.” So really in my opinion, the second birth of PROFANATICA didn’t start with those albums that came out on Hells Headbangers every two or three years, sometimes five. It started in 2016 where, right after that fest the next day, I called him and said: “I’m gonna push this and let’s see what I can do with it, how far we can go.”

Hells Headbanger Records, a major label, released your first four albums. Why didn’t you continue working with them on the last two albums? Did you approach labels again, or did they come to you? Did you see Season Of Mist as an opportunity to conquer the European market through touring?
“Yeah, that’s exactly it. We were on tour with WATAIN and ROTTING CHRIST and the heads of both those bands said: “We’d like to introduce you to Michael from Season Of Mist and have a meeting with him, it could be a good opportunity.” So I’m still active in doing stuff in Hells Headbangers, I technically didn’t leave but we opted to have Season Of Mist release the last full-length and this one that just came out.”

I saw you in Limoges in 2018 with ROTTING CHRIST and WATAIN. PROFANATICA’s approach to religion is very different from that of the Swedes. Apparently, when our compatriots of OTARGOS toured with them in 2010, they were not allowed to sell their “No God – No Satan” t-shirt, and that the guitarist got his hand slashed by WATAIN’s bassist while he was asleep. Childish and surely far less impressive in reality than this legend suggests. As for you, were there any clashes to report? Was the atmosphere relaxed and respectful, even if you’re not on the same wavelength?
“Yes, I would have to say for the most part it was. We were more comrades although at Tyrant Fest in France we were asked to leave their area of the backstage for some unknown reason by their management. And we were forced that day, like to spend the whole day leading to us playing, in the kitchen which was freezing.”

So you have no idea why you got kicked out?
“No. I’m guessing some rockstar shit, how’s that for an answer?”

I guess that’s in line with the OTARGOS anecdote!
“Yeah I know that story, on the tour bus it happened. I probably can’t talk about it, but I remember them telling me about it. But I can tell you that on the bus Alvaro (Lillo – WATAIN’s bassist) was given a gift. It was a little statue of a hand, custom made in metalwork, it was like a claw and there was a dagger going through. I remember seeing it, holding it and thinking he would like that. I don’t know why they were arguing or what happened beyond that. But I’ve never heard of that French band before.”

When PROFANATICA first started out, there was only a handful of Black Metal bands. When asked which bands you liked, you replied BESTIAL SUMMONING from the Netherlands, IMPALED NAZARENE and BEHERIT from Finland, NECROMANTIA and ROTTING CHRIST from Greece. On the other hand, you considered Norwegian bands fake and childish, with the exception of IMMORTAL. You must have met some of the players from this scene since then, and a lot must have gone off in musical or ideological directions that are much more mature than what they were doing in their younger days. Has your opinion about them changed?
“No. Maybe not the people but the music when I hear it, it doesn’t sound heavy to me, there are symphonic elements. I give them credit for redefining it and coming up with a whole genre. But when we heard that genre, we were laughing at it. We liked heavy music, dirty Punk, really evil Death Metal. One of the bands that we really enjoyed listening to back then was ABHORRENCE from Finland. In my opinion then and still, is that ABHORRENCE demo – they might not have meant it, this might have not been their goal – but it’s ten times heavier and more evil than the Black Metal of today coming out of Finland. It’s the same style but not really. There is a lot of people that like both, we see a lot of patches at shows. And people have patches of PROFANATICA, ARCHGOAT, BLACK WITCHERY, BLASPHEMY, BEHERIT, and that’s our world, that style kinda started it. The European slant or the Norwegian style came a good year and a half / two years after we had our demo out. Back then it was new to us, we thought it was stupid and we would laugh at it. It was not heavy, there was no heavy pounding bass or this obnoxiousness attitude. I understand though, today it’s 2024, so a lot of people like old styles and that’s ok too. When I meet somebody I go: “Do you like real style or fake style?” And I could tell right away that these people that like “fake style” the way I say it, their patches are perfectly sawn on, they’re in a specific order, it’s all the same style patches.”

At the time, were you talking to any of the bands you liked in Europe?
“Yeah I was in contact with Mika from IMPALED NAZARENE and Holocausto from BEHERIT at the time.”

The first American Black Metal band hails from Hawaii: VON, who released two highly influential demos at the time, “Satanic Blood” and “Blood Angel”. Did you know the band back then? Did you have any contact with them?
“(laughs) This is like a difficult question. So, I like the demo, but everybody needs to know that they weren’t around back then. They might have been practicing… but VON was not around back then. I don’t know what to tell you beyond that, because I was there and nobody had ever heard of that band VON back then. Nobody traded the tape, nobody had that tape and that’s all I could say. I like it, it’s you know, like simple Black Death Metal, US Black Metal sounding. But they just were not a thing, they were not in any zines, nobody had any photos of them, nobody had that demo, so I don’t know what to tell you. The story about them came out many many years later, so it’s possible they were around back then, and just practicing in a garage or rehearsal space but they were not around in the ’90s. You’ll notice that my opinions are not… they might not be popular, but the truth never is.”

For you, the ’80s Death Metal like POSSESSED, NECROVORE, MORBID ANGEL was THE Black Metal. VENOM and HELLHAMMER as well. These last two bands have in common DISCHARGE style Hardcore Punk inspired rhythms, which you also use, for example in ‘The First Fall’ on your latest album. In the ‘80s and ‘90s in Europe, the Punk and the Metal scenes were quite distinct. Was this also the case for you? Were you able to claim your interest for Punk in the Metal scene without fear of an argument?
“Yeah correct, here in the late ’80s, it was all one thing, it was all one scene. Maybe not in, let’s say 1984 or 1983, but in 1985 everybody – and I mean everybody that was at a show – like in New York City when POSSESSED or DARK ANGEL played, even though they grew up a Metalhead and they were like sworn Death Metallers, as early as ’85, everybody had at least a D.R.I. button on their jacket. And a couple years later CRYPTIC SLAUGHTER. There might have been some smaller scenes that played shitty clubs that had claimed: “This is different we don’t allow Punk people here or Metalheads or Metal people”. But you could hear it in the early USA music how much of an influence that came about with it. And when I say Punk and Hardcore, definitely this band HERESY from England, POISON IDEA, D.R.I., even that first S.O.D. with Danny Lilker, that kind of stuff is built in the US Metal, you could hear a lot of DISCHARGE style in REPULSION, that band NME that I mentioned from Seattle. Actually me and Kai (Ritual Butcherer, guitarist) from ARCHGOAT had a discussion that back then in the ’90s, on a bill there usually was maybe a Thrash band playing, but there would also be some kind of Punk style, everything was one big family. And maybe one thing that I’m kind of serious about is: when the Norwegian Black Metal movement started to catch on in around ’94, that’s when people started to get into it, this art of going to a show and just standing there like you were a tough guy, like a stoic, also pissed us off. And we have friends in Paris and we just played Paris last spring and it was crazy mayhem. The people go, and they should, go a little bit crazy as soon as we start. So in ’94, as soon as that Norwegian / European slant of Black Metal came, so did the separation of “you guys aren’t cool enough”, “you don’t listen to this or that” and “you play kind of a dirty Punk Metal, we’re not into that, we’ll just stand here, with our arms folded and not show any emotion”. Which is still around today, we’re kind of dealing with that, we don’t like it.”

Anti-Christianity is also a subject addressed by Punk bands. Having said that, Punk is more down-to-earth than Metal and the lyrics are often critical of society and its leaders. You said in an interview that the Pope is the fakest and most hypocritical man on Earth, but what do you think of people like Trump, Bush, and all those who talk about democracy and manipulate the majority to their benefit? At a time when religion is much less powerful than it was hundreds of years ago, isn’t that the real enemy, before Jesus and other figures from Judeo-Christian mythology?
Paul : “It probably is. You’re right, it’s all kind of the same shit, trying to get control over another human, but in terms of being fake, the Pope now might really believe that bullshit, or we might never now, he might never break character. I often thought if we were stranded on a desert island, would he break character and say “This is bullshit, I know we’re never getting off here, I’m just telling you the truth.”? So it’s hard to say, but yeah you’re right, all those are very similar lyrics, but I think that the Punk did it in a more anti-society realistic way at the time than we did. Ours was, even though we hated it, we were able to bring in some fantasy concepts like black cum, black vomit into that subject matter to spice it up a little bit. Plus we thought it was funny!”

Much has been written about this album. Even as today, no two versions agree. Aragon told Hervé that you had an argument and that it was you who destroyed the recording. For your part, you said that you discovered that the other members of the band had corrupted the tape with a big magnet, but it seems that this album was recorded on a computer and not on an analogue medium. So the error would be a computer bug. Except that Robert Crusen had made a tape that he gave to Hervé from Osmose Productions about ten years ago. You said that a man named Jim Stanic had this recording and refused to give it to you, so I suppose you weren’t aware that there was another copy of it?
“I wasn’t but I can assure you that I didn’t do it and I can assure you that it was done on 2” tape and that it was not digital, because our producer at the time did not have a computer, it was all analogue tools. But I have proof that I didn’t do it and others did, as they admitted it, and I think I have it in writing so eventually, I don’t know when, the truth will come out as well as that fallout.”

Several tracks from the album session ended up on the Hells Headbanger Records compilation “The Enemy Of Virtue”. Where did they come from, if you didn’t own the original master or one of the two cassette copies?
“I was able to get my hands… I can’t tell you where I got them, because our producer sadly had passed away, but I do remember the day I was at the studio. And he hooked up the reels to the machine and we heard what had happened and he could not explain it. Many years went before friends of both of us told me what happened. I had some of the tracks, not all of them.”

Now that you know about the cassette taken by Robert Crusen to Hervé, would you like to see these recordings come out?
“That cassette, there is no bass on those. The bass tracks were not done yet. That cassette was like a rough mix of everything, it wasn’t finished. Yes, maybe someday it could come out.”

Your first EP “Weeping In Heaven” was released in ’92 on the American label After World Records. At that time, Hervé from Osmose Productions offered you a deal, which you accepted. Was this the result of canvassing for a record deal or a spontaneous offer from Hervé?
“We got lots of offers back then from everybody and I think the reason we took Osmose’s is like he had a professional layouts and a professional way of pushing the bands, plus he told me some of the names of that roster, and we said yes right away.”

It was before the albums by ROTTING CHRIST, IMMORTAL, ENSLAVED… At the time, only SAMAEL, MASACRE and BLASPHEREION had released an album with them. Did you know and like these bands?
“I did, but the thing is he told me who else he had, that he was talking to. So I knew he was gonna be, for the early ’90s, the premiere label of the correct style of Black Metal. You know he had IMMORTAL too, that EP. But IMMORTAL was the only band back then, playing that kind of Norwegian style that opted to go more towards BATHORY than VENOM, that formula.”

Back then, labels were often responsible for organizing tours, whereas nowadays it’s bookers who take care of things. At the time, did you think that signing with a French label could offer you touring opportunities on the old continent?
“We didn’t really care back then, we probably should have, but we didn’t give a shit, about anything really, unfortunately. But had I paid attention, and did what I was supposed to do back then, it would have been a lot better for me today, that I can assure you.”

In an interview dating back to “Rotting Incarnation Of God” you said that this is the first album that is absolutely 100% finished the way you wanted it. What has changed from the previous albums to make it so?
“What really changed was my desire to work hard and fight through challenges. If somebody didn’t agree on a riff back then, we would have just kept it and I would have been like “Oh that’s fine.” And some of the stuff was good, I want to say that is when I came off of autopilot, I started really pushing for every note to be how I wanted.”

“Crux Simplex” marks the arrival of a new instrument: the keyboard. Why wait so many albums before including one? Was it a way of distancing yourself from the Scandinavian bands who made keyboards their main instrument, like EMPEROR, who you used to loathe?
“We just used it a little bit, sparingly, to enhance what we already had and there is actually a keyboard run in “Rotting Incarnation Of God” as well. If you listen carefully, it’s buried but it’s in the guitar run in ‘Mocked, Scourged And Shit Upon’. Same kind of thing there.”

You’ve said that you didn’t like publishing the lyrics, that they’re personal, but it would seem that they’re just blasphemy, crude and morbid images, nothing so personal after all…
“Well yeah, some of them are extremely simple, and some of them are really thought out and each syllable is perfectly fitted. It just depends on how we feel but in “Crux Simplex” on the inside there are pieces of lyrics, like out of a little story.“

You said that Gelso came back to see you in Seattle and had some riffs for you, is it possible that he returns as a session musician?
“Yes, very possible. I have riffs on my phone that he sends me from time to time. I don’t think at this point in his life – because he’s a graphic designer – he wants to be in a full working band and leave his family. He can do it, but I don’t think he wants that, that’s not really his passion.”

We’d like to thank you Paul, and Will Yarbrough for making this interview possible. We hope to see PROFANATICA on stage again for a baptism of ancestral Metal, piss, blood and cum. The last words are for you…
Thanks for having me. I like your questions, which were a little more in depth, which makes it a little tougher to answer as I usually get just some basic questions. But in terms of “Crux Simplex”, we’re still touring and hope to come back to Europe in 2024, it’s definitely in our plans to come back before the year’s end. This time I feel strongly that we’re gonna have a good support, co-headliner or good backup band, and we’ve never really been able to complete somebody that fits good with us over there. This time we’re taking NUNSLAUGHTER in the US and if we can bring that over there that would be ideal. So thanks for having me!”

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Live pics: Sabine Thiele
Interview: Cämille Clerc